tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7381811875173852585.post7415296254321875699..comments2023-11-10T02:18:23.772-08:00Comments on Minnesota Matron: Wherein the Matron Treads Dangerous Waters Minnesota Matronhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16565431067927240183noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7381811875173852585.post-86460246074942813012013-09-16T08:30:23.462-07:002013-09-16T08:30:23.462-07:00PS: Your writing was worth the sip of rather cold ...PS: Your writing was worth the sip of rather cold coffee I just took!Karen (formerly kcinnova)https://www.blogger.com/profile/16705613736966783261noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7381811875173852585.post-55952774098956518322013-09-16T08:29:23.087-07:002013-09-16T08:29:23.087-07:00Coming by this post rather tardily, but I am struc...Coming by this post rather tardily, but I am struck by the same "bitter taste for fundamentalism in all its forms" whether Baptist or Islamic (just to name two of many, many forms that fundamentalism can take). Karen (formerly kcinnova)https://www.blogger.com/profile/16705613736966783261noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7381811875173852585.post-7887141433319263102013-08-11T17:32:36.688-07:002013-08-11T17:32:36.688-07:00Jenn -- I read that book. Hirsi Ali makes a resou...Jenn -- I read that book. Hirsi Ali makes a resounding case against Islam. But then I also read a book (can't remember the title now) about Hirsi Ali and her Islamic counterpart (a woman now serving time in federal prison for terrorism) that really made me leery of Hirsi Ali as well. She's not very forthcoming about her life - there's lots of disparity between what she claims and others remember.Minnesota Matronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16565431067927240183noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7381811875173852585.post-66290633416778622402013-08-11T13:04:38.457-07:002013-08-11T13:04:38.457-07:00I've not made a study of it, but I found Infid...I've not made a study of it, but I found Infidel by Ayaan Hirsi Ali to make a compelling argument for Islam being very anti-woman.Jenn @ Juggling Lifehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14455967210924573398noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7381811875173852585.post-59530698119436625482013-08-09T08:04:52.740-07:002013-08-09T08:04:52.740-07:00Robin -
Your very good observations touch on the ...Robin - <br />Your very good observations touch on the complexities that my post notes it must avoid (that book-length manuscript would be needed). But you're right about the cultural intersections with religion. One of the most striking is that people tend to assume that female circumcision-genital mutilation is an Islamic tradition: it's not. Female genital mutilation rises out of specific cultural traditions that are more about geography and tribe (culture0 than religion, yet the practice -- in much of the non-Muslim imagination -- is linked to Islam. But Islam is also part of the motivation for those geographic/cultural/tribal hot spots where female genital mutilation is widespread. But 'part.' And the practice certainly is not inherently Islamic. Anyway, just an example that comes to mind, reinforcing your point about culture. Minnesota Matronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16565431067927240183noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7381811875173852585.post-7144184549852415632013-08-09T04:22:33.059-07:002013-08-09T04:22:33.059-07:00As I understand it, the Quran itself, as compared ...As I understand it, the Quran itself, as compared to the Bible, places relatively few restrictions on female dress/behaviour. (The Bible just looooooooves to tell the ladies what we can and can't do. Talking in church? Teaching the scriptures? Not allowed. Thanks a bunch, St Paul, you dick.) A lot of the restrictions that have come to be part of Islam - including veiling - were culturally present in the Middle East before Islam, and were gradually incorporated as religious practices.<br /><br />I also always note, when this discussion arises, that the largest Muslim nation in the world (Indonesia) has elected a female head of state - again, this could show that a lot of the anti-female elements that are considered 'Muslim' are in fact geographically and culturally specific.<br /><br />That said, I'm not an apologist for the enormous amount of oppression of women that is done in the name of Islam. All the crap that goes down in Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan? Women being prevented from driving, showing their faces, going to school? That sh*t needs to stop. Islam, as much as something so wide-ranging and disparate can be summed up in a single word, has a long, long way to go in its treatment of women.<br /><br />Interesting post! :)Robinhttp://rowantreedesign.co.uk/blognoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7381811875173852585.post-40917093879203833902013-08-07T05:40:04.073-07:002013-08-07T05:40:04.073-07:00Sue - Your comments appeared in my gmail but not h...Sue - Your comments appeared in my gmail but not here: thank you! I know you weren't giving your life story but it sounded like an interesting one : -). But I also appreciate the nod to genuine curiosity. That's always a good thing!Minnesota Matronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16565431067927240183noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7381811875173852585.post-63914927960228189242013-08-06T12:30:10.290-07:002013-08-06T12:30:10.290-07:00Interesting that despite your prejudice going in, ...Interesting that despite your prejudice going in, you came out sensing the great difference. I suppose one can debate the intersections of culture and religion, but at the end of the day, from everything I've read and seen, Islam does not hold women in the same esteem as men. I was really curious about the conclusion YOU would draw, though.<br />Also, a lovely intersection between the man on the radio, the coffee shop and your research.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7381811875173852585.post-2262565948230585382013-08-06T09:46:09.533-07:002013-08-06T09:46:09.533-07:00Well, Suburban -- you caught me. I was quite vagu...Well, Suburban -- you caught me. I was quite vague in the particulars of which religions. Mostly, I'm talking about the restrictions of Islam, but Christianity and Judaism also have restrictions/rules for the female body (and used to have more). I think most of Christianity and Judaism's mainstream 'rules' for the body are pretty benign. I'm not sure what those rules are for fundamentalist or highly conservative practitioners, but imagine that these are more restrictive and would -- for me -- therefore be more problematic. But you're wrong to say that I'm pinpointing religion as 'the' culprit for female oppression. No, no, no. I'm just making an observation about religion here and not claiming religion to be more or less at fault in gender inequity than other social systems, including the ones that you name: cultural assumptions that have nothing to do with religion and, perhaps most of all, economics. If I were to broaden my analysis beyond religion, I would have to find economics as the most pressing, urgent contributor to gender inequity today. Gong back to that physical control analysis, if you can't feed and clothe yourself (and your children), find a home, support yourself-and that includes during those points you mention, childbearing and breastfeeding -- then we cannot be free. For many women, hard cold cash and its steady supply would save and/or change their lives, no matter what religion dictated. This extends to women who can't get water in developing countries (water is a huge problem that affects women and children first) to middle-class women in developed countries like the U.S. who can't get a divorce because they don't have the economic means to support themselves or their children. So if I had to 'pinpoint' the biggest problem, it would be economics.Minnesota Matronhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16565431067927240183noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7381811875173852585.post-46013672175929964922013-08-06T08:47:20.619-07:002013-08-06T08:47:20.619-07:00Isn't it interesting how we go about our daily...Isn't it interesting how we go about our daily lives seeing, but not really observing, until something slaps us up-side the head (such as the young Somali journalist). I liked this post although I didn't agree with all the points. What I am taking away from it is "Look deeper, be observant, think about what it all means." <br /><br />It's a bit early for my glass of wine, but I did manage a cup of coffee, albeit cold by now. :-) Gailhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00718166611471626534noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7381811875173852585.post-27420371088551548862013-08-06T04:54:22.689-07:002013-08-06T04:54:22.689-07:00This is a little confusing, Matron, because the re...This is a little confusing, Matron, because the reader (that would be, uh, ME) has little idea to what religious beliefs/practices you are actually referring. There is such a wide spectrum of practice within any one religion. You mentioned fundamentalism - does that mean you refer only to the fundamentalist strains of all these religions? <br /><br />And, in reference to "any woman who had more than three children for religious reasons (no matter what religion) might be good with God but was in serious secular trouble," I would say that particular disadvantage is more biologically and economically driven than religiously so. Whether I am Catholic or Mormon or humanist, having several children places me at an economic/physical disadvantage, even here in our secular society.<br /><br />In short, you're pinpointing religion as the culprit for these women's oppression, where I feel that at least some of the blame (if not most) lies at the feet of our economic policies and cultural assumptions. And let's not forget the biological imperatives that also put women at a disadvantage - the physical vulnerability of childbearing and breastfeeding, to name just two. <br /><br />Suburban Correspondenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11488916572135296650noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7381811875173852585.post-91024497304513990652013-08-06T04:35:38.040-07:002013-08-06T04:35:38.040-07:00Excellent post, Mary.
JFS in ILExcellent post, Mary. <br /><br />JFS in ILAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com